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Welcome, Tsuzuki.
Last visit: Yesterday at 11:59 pm.
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Yesterday, 2:45 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Ask a Thelemite
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
To begin with, Thelema is the philosophy/religion founded by Aleister Crowley, whose central holy book is Liber AL vel Legis
(the Book of the Law), published in 1904. There are other books that
make up the body of Thelemic scripture, but Liber AL is the main one.
The one and only "commandment" in Thelema is "Do what thou wilt." It
means for each individual to discover and do their "true will", which is
to say their unique calling or purpose in life, or in each moment, and
to this end, Thelema champions the freedom the individual, as
illustrated in another important Thelemic text, Liber Oz.
A little bit about myself:
I grew up Mormon, but joined the Roman Catholic Church in 2008. In 2012,
I got into Thelema and joined Aleister Crowley's flagship occult
fraternity, Ordo Templi Orientis, where I am currently the initiation secretary of my local Lodge and an ordained Deacon in its ecclesiastical arm, Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica.
Thelema encourages the exploration of other religions, so I still
consider myself Catholic (and even Mormon) after a fashion, but I'm
super "cafeteria", and I'm not offended if Catholics (or Mormons) disown
me. Thelema is my main home, anyway.
I recently completed the first series of O.T.O. initiations (the " Man of Earth"
degrees), so I am directly knowledgeable about everything in O.T.O.
that isn't by special invitation-only. I won't reveal, confirm, or deny
anything that's actually secret, but there's still a lot that I can
answer, so don't be afraid to ask.
Love is the law, love under will.
__________________
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"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
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Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Yesterday, 2:46 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
To help get things going, here are some previous answers to questions I've received:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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Do you pray? To whom? and why?
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Yes. Personally, I still do Christian prayers, as well as
meditative practices from various other religions, but Thelema also has
its own unique prayer-type rituals. I try to do Liber Resh four times a
day as often as I can, at sunrise, noon, sunset, and midnight. It helps
keep me grounded.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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Do you see an affinity between Thelemism and the ethical philosophy of Ayn Rand? On the surface they seem very compatible.
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I know some Thelemites who are into Ayn Rand, but that's not my
take on it, and I don't see any special connection, at least not any
more than anything else. It really is only on the surface. Most of the
people I hang out with in the O.T.O. aren't Randians, but that's also
just my bias in the people I hang out with. I'm more of a socialist.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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What are the influences Thelema has had on modern day Satanism and
vice versa? I know that some satanists regard Crowley very highly.
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Thelema has definitely had an influence on modern Satanism, though
it's not uniform. I know the Temple of Set views Crowley highly, but
there are other groups that distance themselves from him for not being
"Satanic" enough.
Vice versa is more complicated. I would consider Crowley a (small 's')
satanist (at least in his youth), and the figure of Satan is featured in
Thelema, but it's secondary, and not mentioned in the core holy books.
Jesus and other deities are featured just as much, and all such
instances serve to illustrate Thelemic concepts.
For a more in depth look at the concept of Satan in Thelema, a brother in the O.T.O. did a really good lecture on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbi2acwVbeY
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
The main problem I have with Thelema is the part about the weak. The
Book of the Law speaks of the weak being below sympathy and needing to
be destroyed. My entire theology and philosophy of life is based around
the opposite. The weak are to be protected and loved. Like L'Arche.
Can Thelema be reconciled with a less social Darwinist outlook? How can it be reconciled with the Church?
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For the record, I'm not a social Darwinist, and neither are most
of my friends in the O.T.O., though we have representatives of
practically every philosophy you can think of, and we encourage
diversity. The most important thing in Thelema is to think for yourself.
Personally, I like helping people, and there are Thelemic texts that
promote that. Liber Librae, for example.
http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0030.html
"Do good to others for its own sake, not for reward, not
for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou
wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude." - Liber Librae As
for the Book of the Law in particular, it's meant to be interpreted
only by the individual reader at the time of reading, so I can only say
what I get out of certain passages, and it's different every time
I read it. When I read "stamp down the wretched & the weak", I
often turn it inward to my own weaknesses, and it's a motivator for self
discipline. There's no shortage of other passages that are offensive on
the surface, mostly in the third chapter, which makes sense with its
main theme, but even that you have to figure out yourself. It helps to
know other Thelemites in real life and see how they make sense of
things, but the Law is "Do what thou wilt", not "Do what you see
Thelemites doing".
As for reconciling Thelema with Roman Catholicism, so far the process
has landed me squarely in the Catholic "cafeteria", but I don't think
that's so bad. I preferred it there anyway. The bottom line is to think
and act for yourself.
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__________________
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"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
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Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Yesterday, 2:46 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Continued from above:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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Can you take us through some of your thoughts/ feelings/ life events that brought you to Thelema?
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As I mentioned, I started out in Mormonism, but I was never fully
satisfied with it. Instead of going on a mission like most Mormons my
age at the time, I started studying other religions, with a particular
fondness for Eastern religions and Western esotericism and occultism. In
this study, I came across the writing of Alphonse Louis Constant
(Eliphas Levi), who was highly influential on modern occultism, but also
a devout Catholic (after his own fashion), and that's what inspired me
to join the Roman Catholic Church back in 2008. I wanted to experience
it for myself.
Fast forward a few years, and I'm still a practicing Catholic with an
interest in Western esotericism and occultism, but I'm not very
knowledgeable about Crowley or Thelema. Crowley was just as influential
as Levi on modern occultism, but few people like to acknowledge him, and
he gets a lot of hate. Anyway, at this point, it was now obvious to me
that I'd been neglecting Thelema, and it just so happened to coincide
with me going to college full-time with lots of financial aid and free
time on my hands, so I decided to join the O.T.O. and experience it for
myself. I was initiated as a Minerval (which is the "honored guest"
degree) in January of 2012, and in October of that same year, became a
full member. I haven't regretted a moment of it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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Were you exposed to some system of occultism before you started studying it?
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As nerdy as it sounds, I got my first exposure from Japanese
anime. There's isn't the same stigma in Japan as there is here about the
occult, and it gets treated more fairly. There it's just Western
religion.
From that initial exposure it was just personal preference. I developed a
fondness for the writing of Eliphas Levi, and ironically, that's what
initially lead me to Catholicism, but I guess I over shot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
Do you think Thelema is truth?
If so, why do you think it is more true an any other philosophy, religion?
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For me, Thelema is the realization and celebration that I am
responsible for my own actions, and also that every other person has the
right to be responsible for their own actions. How that factors into
other religions and philosophies is for each person to figure out for
themselves.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Quote:
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Do you practice any sort of ritual magic?
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I do. Or at least I try to. It's a life long pursuit.
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__________________
.
"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
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Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Yesterday, 4:52 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: September 30, 2009
Posts: 2,191
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
We believe that Jesus, who is God Incarnate, founded and gave us the
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is has the fullness of the
Truth.
Isn't that far preferable than believing and living a philosophy that was created by a mere mortal in 1904?
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Yesterday, 6:28 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 4, 2013
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 1,729
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
The only thing Aleister Crowley lacked was the Rock N Roll, though his influence on 60s pop culture possibly fulfilled that.
Interestingly L Ron Hubbard dabbled in Thelema.
I wish you well in your searching.
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Yesterday, 6:32 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: July 29, 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,751
Religion: Roman Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
This is just a short snippy comment, but Thelema sounds exactly like Adam and Eve's sin.
__________________
As for me, to be near God is my good, to make the Lord God my refuge. (Ps 73:28)
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Yesterday, 6:50 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: April 30, 2011
Location: México
Posts: 9,899
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesrock
This is just a short snippy comment, but Thelema sounds exactly like Adam and Eve's sin.
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Agreed. It sounds selfish.
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Yesterday, 7:25 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl B
Interestingly L Ron Hubbard dabbled in Thelema.
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Do you have any questions about that? I'm three degrees of separation from people who were there, and it's a fun story to tell.
__________________
.
"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
----------
Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Yesterday, 7:50 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: June 30, 2014
Location: Pacific Northwest, United States
Posts: 11,353
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
A little bit about myself:
I grew up Mormon, but joined the Roman Catholic Church in 2008....
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Sure, I've got a few questions I guess. 
Assuming you're into ritual magic, how do you reconcile that with
Catholicism, cafeteria or otherwise? Not to sound hostile or anything,
but clearly standing within a circle with well-known "occult" symbols
drawn on the ground and attempting to summon "daemons", personal
thought-forms, yada, yada, yada is clearly anti-Christ(ian). Concerning the IAOM chumps,
how do reconcile being a Freemason with being a cafeteria-style
Catholic? Do you take the standard "good works, etc." line? Or do you
take Crowley's line? And as far as Crowley himself goes, do you view his
bisexuality and terminal heroin addiction as a sign of wisdom and
holiness? Or do you view it as a sign of someone who had severe personal
problems which he needed to address?
Another question: what are your thoughts on Christian humility? The reason I ask is because it's the crux of what all
so-called occultists are dealing with. I know of no exceptions; it's an
absolute rule which holds true 100% of the time: people are drawn to
so-called occultism (which actually isn't secret or "occult" at all)
through egotism. They believe that they have secret information which
sets them apart from the rest. Before long they're talking about Secret
Chiefs and whatnot, completely lost in their imaginations, picturing
themselves as Gandalf or something, and all because they're special and
unlike other people.
__________________
Solvitur ambulando…. It is solved by walking…
~Augustine
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Yesterday, 8:13 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: April 30, 2011
Location: México
Posts: 9,899
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
Sure, I've got a few questions I guess. 
Assuming you're into ritual magic, how do you reconcile that with
Catholicism, cafeteria or otherwise? Not to sound hostile or anything,
but clearly standing within a circle with well-known "occult" symbols
drawn on the ground and attempting to summon "daemons", personal
thought-forms, yada, yada, yada is clearly anti-Christ(ian). Concerning the IAOM chumps,
how do reconcile being a Freemason with being a cafeteria-style
Catholic? Do you take the standard "good works, etc." line? Or do you
take Crowley's line? And as far as Crowley himself goes, do you view his bisexuality and terminal heroin addiction as a sign of wisdom and holiness? Or do you view it as a sign of someone who had severe personal problems which he needed to address?
Another question: what are your thoughts on Christian humility? The reason I ask is because it's the crux of what all
so-called occultists are dealing with. I know of no exceptions; it's an
absolute rule which holds true 100% of the time: people are drawn to
so-called occultism (which actually isn't secret or "occult" at all)
through egotism. They believe that they have secret information which
sets them apart from the rest. Before long they're talking about Secret
Chiefs and whatnot, completely lost in their imaginations, picturing
themselves as Gandalf or something, and all because they're special and
unlike other people.
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Yesterday, 8:32 pm
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Veteran Member
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Join Date: April 30, 2011
Location: México
Posts: 9,899
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Do Satanists and their kin believe they will go to hell at the end of their lives, or where do they think they will end up?
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Yesterday, 9:27 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
Sure, I've got a few questions I guess. 
Assuming you're into ritual magic, how do you reconcile that with
Catholicism, cafeteria or otherwise? Not to sound hostile or anything,
but clearly standing within a circle with well-known "occult" symbols
drawn on the ground and attempting to summon "daemons", personal
thought-forms, yada, yada, yada is clearly anti-Christ(ian).
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My interest in both ritual magic and Catholicism was originally
through Eliphas Levi, who was himself a devout Catholic, so I reconcile
them the same way he did. He is my template.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
Concerning the IAOM chumps,
how do reconcile being a Freemason with being a cafeteria-style
Catholic? Do you take the standard "good works, etc." line? Or do you
take Crowley's line?
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I'm not a Freemason, so I can't answer this question. I might join
at some point, but right now I don't know if they are compatible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
And as far as Crowley himself goes, do
you view his bisexuality and terminal heroin addiction as a sign of
wisdom and holiness? Or do you view it as a sign of someone who had
severe personal problems which he needed to address?
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I'm interested in his writing, not his lifestyle, and I never knew
him, so I can't comment on any of his personal problems. I'm a
Thelemite, not a Crowleyite. On the subject of bisexuality, though,
that's a sexual orientation, and I will enthusiastically defend anyone's
right to love as they will. I have lots of friends who are LGBT, and
they are awesome people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled Child
Another question: what are your thoughts on Christian humility? The reason I ask is because it's the crux of what all
so-called occultists are dealing with. I know of no exceptions; it's an
absolute rule which holds true 100% of the time: people are drawn to
so-called occultism (which actually isn't secret or "occult" at all)
through egotism. They believe that they have secret information which
sets them apart from the rest. Before long they're talking about Secret
Chiefs and whatnot, completely lost in their imaginations, picturing
themselves as Gandalf or something, and all because they're special and
unlike other people.
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Somewhat related to your first question, I think that what you
call "Christian humility" is essential to being a magician, and Eliphas
Levi certainly believed as much. I don't know what occultists you are
referring to, but everyone I know in the O.T.O. who's made it at least
passed II° knows that it's not all about their egos. You are also right
that there is nothing actually secret in the occult, and anyone looking
for that in the O.T.O. is barking up the wrong tree, and I would not
sponsor them to join. I also personally don't believe in "Secret Chiefs"
or any such nonsense.
Liber Librae is one of my favorite Thelemic texts, and it addresses this issue directly.
http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0030.html
Learn first— Oh thou who aspirest unto our ancient
Order!— that Equilibrium is the basis of the Work. If thou thyself hast
not a sure foundation, whereon wilt thou stand to direct the forces of
Nature?
Know then, that as man is born into this world amidst the Darkness of
Matter, and the strife of contending forces; so must his first endeavour
be to seek the Light through their reconciliation.
Thou then who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in
them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that
Light.
How should it be otherwise, O man, whose life is but a day in Eternity, a
drop in the Ocean of time; how, were thy trials not many, couldst thou
purge thy soul from the dross of earth?
Is it but now that the Higher Life is beset with dangers and
difficulties; hath it not ever been so with the Sages and Hierophants of
the past? They have been persecuted and reviled, they have been
tormented of men; yet through this also has their Glory increased.
Rejoice therefore, O Initiate, for the greater thy trial the greater thy
Triumph. When men shall revile thee, and speak against thee falsely,
hath not the Master said, “Blessed art thou!”?
Yet, oh aspirant, let thy victories bring thee not Vanity, for with
increase of Knowledge should come increase of Wisdom. He who knoweth
little, thinketh he knoweth much; but he who knoweth much has learned
his own ignorance. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is
more hope of a fool, than of him.
Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place,
thou couldst have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why
shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
[...]
__________________
.
"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
----------
Tiber Swim Team 2008
Last edited by Tsuzuki; Yesterday at 9:38 pm.
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Yesterday, 9:28 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearWater
Do Satanists and their kin believe they will go to hell at the end of their lives, or where do they think they will end up?
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I don't know. You'll have to ask a Satanist.
__________________
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"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
----------
Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Yesterday, 10:39 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 4, 2013
Location: Auckland New Zealand
Posts: 1,729
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuzuki
Do you have any questions about that? I'm three degrees of separation from people who were there, and it's a fun story to tell.
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By all means, if you have a story to share.
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Yesterday, 11:34 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl B
By all means, if you have a story to share.
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Short version with possible inaccuracies, since I don't have the letters and journal entries in front of me at the moment:
In the mid 1940's, Agape Lodge O.T.O. in Southern California was being
run from the home of Jack Parsons (the rocket scientist), and he was
also the Lodge Master at the time. At the same time, Parsons rented
rooms out to people he liked. Anyway, L. Ron Hubbard was one of those
people.
There's no record of Hubbard joining the O.T.O., but he and Parsons were
always hanging out together. The other members of the Lodge were
creeped out by Hubbard and worried about Parsons. This was during the
time that Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard were doing their "Babalon
Working". I won't go into detail about it here, but what you can find
online about it is true. In addition to that, Parsons and Hubbard went
into business together to sell boats.
When word of Parsons' relationship with Hubbard got to Crowley (who was
in England), he got worried about Agape Lodge, and he appointed Grady
McMurtry to make sure everything was okay there and report back to him,
but by the time McMurtry got there, L. Ron Hubbard had absconded with
all the money and assets that Parsons had put into their business
arrangement, which eventually lead to Parsons having to sell his house,
and Agape Lodge no longer had a stable meeting place. This eventually
lead to the O.T.O. almost dying out until Grady McMurtry was able to
save it from extinction in the 1970's.
So yeah. There is some bad blood between O.T.O. and Scientology.
Another fun fact. Sara Northrup, who left with L. Ron Hubbard, latter
married him, and was abused by him, was an O.T.O. member. So we really hate L. Ron Hubbard. He messed with our family.
__________________
.
"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
----------
Tiber Swim Team 2008
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Today, 12:27 am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: October 1, 2013
Posts: 285
Religion: Roman Catholic (No Longer Lapsed)
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
What makes you believe that magic, in this sense, is even real?
I've know many people who actively practiced the occult but I've never
seen proof that most of this is anything other than people waving their
hands and claiming to have power they don't.
Even claims of success came were so unimpressive, even when I was
questioning faith, it felt like something to ridiculous to even
question. At best, it came off as just a psychological practice to
improve oneself that could be dressed up in a number of other ways and
at worse it seemed like self-delusion.
I apologize if I come off rude; I'm a total skeptic when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Today, 12:40 am
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Regular Member
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Join Date: March 2, 2006
Posts: 970
Religion: Thelemite and Cafeteria Rite Catholic occultist
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Re: Ask a Thelemite
Quote:
Originally Posted by xNoOnex
At best, it came off as just a psychological practice to improve oneself that could be dressed up in a number of other ways...
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This is how I approach it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xNoOnex
I apologize if I come off rude; I'm a total skeptic when it comes to this sort of thing.
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So am I.
__________________
.
"The Way of Mastery is to break all the rules--but you have to know
them perfectly before you can do this; otherwise you are not in a
position to transcend them." - Aleister Crowley
"Love, and do what thou wilt." - Saint Augustine
----------
Tiber Swim Team 2008
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